Doug Weller talk 15:40, 12 March 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply], The Haseki Sultan was chief consort, and Hrrem Sultan was Sleyman's. Breaking Ottoman tradition, he married Hurrem, making her his legal wife. 18th century portrait of Hurrem Sultan kept at Topkap Palace. She is known to be a legal wife before Hurrem Sultan, but not so popular since Hurrem Sultan was the first "slave" to become a legal wife, hence, only Hurrem's being a legal wife is so popular. Dear Phso 2,I think i have made the issue clear which is about the royal woman "Mahidevran" and you shuould not have any doubt or confusion or Question regarding this subject. Sources indicate that Hurrem Sultan was originally from Ruthenia, which was then part of the Polish Crown. As we can clearly see from your contribution list. "Sultan" had many meanings throughout history and did reflect the status and the way of interacting of the times; if we want to accurately depict history then, at last, she's a "hatun". I'll sing your praises always Worldandhistory (talk) 14:13, 4 March 2016 (UTC) Subscribe to our free weekly newsletter and stay up to date on History of Royal Women's articles! There is a possibility of both titles therefore no title should be put in. In his 1551 letter to Sigismund II concerning the embassy of Piotr Opaliski, Suleiman wrote that the Ambassador had seen "Your sister and my wife." He was very intelligent and had a strong politic education. [30], Mustafa was supported by Ibrahim Pasha, who became Suleiman's grand vizier in 1523. Not to mention that "was a chief consort" doesn't make much sense, because a implies that there is more than one which is a contradiction to the meaning of chief. # 9. +14 more. In the times of Suleyman, not everyone could be addressed that way. WebMahidevran Turbesi3.jpg 315 470; 22 KB. Life in a Sultans harem was not glamorous and it certainly wasnt about love. It turned out to be a certain Said Perizad Temryukoglu. Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.218.117.86 (talk) 20:21, 3 March 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply], It is of much importance that the article you cite mentions Nurbanu Sultan as being a "bas kadin" when talking about the fact that, despite "kadin" and "haseki sultan" carried different meanings, they had equivalent importance in the harem. Simply put, a natural death is one that occurs due to an internal factor that causes the body to shut down, such as cancer, heart disease or diabetes. Memorial ID. At that time Mustafa was the third son of Suleiman, without significant importance. Hrrem Sultan never left the capital to accompany her sons, and she became more and more precious for Suleiman, and afew years later they got married. She built numerous mosques, madrasahs, hammams, and resting places for pilgrims travelling to the Islamic holy city of Makkah. The title of this page should read as Mahidevran or Mahidevran Gulbahar. Hello my dear friends!I'm glad to see you on my channel. [36] In Jerusalem she established the Haseki Sultan Imaret in 1552, a public soup kitchen to feed the poor,[37] which was said to have fed at least 500 people twice a day. Burial. 113.203.156.141 (talk) 23:52, 1 March 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply], First of all, those references you've cited are: 1) popular culture based books 2) recent and based on art and theatrical depictions; as such, these references are unfounded and misinformed when it comes to Ottoman history. [41], Hurrem is known to have been very generous to the poor. [18] According to Bernardo Navagero's report, as a result of the bitter rivalry a fight between the two women broke out, with Mahidevran beating Hurrem, which angered Suleiman. In this article the sentence about Mahidevran's origin had been changed several times. Hurrem died on 15 April 1558 due to an unknown illness and was buried in a domed mausoleum (trbe) decorated in exquisite Iznik tiles depicting the garden of paradise, perhaps in homage to her smiling and joyful nature. I badly need a reliable source to back either claim. In rare cases, an autopsy needs to be performed by a pathologist. Popular culture calls her that way because in some theatre plays she's erroneously addressed like that, just as any work of FICTION. Acting on Hurrem Sultan's orders, Rustem Pasha had engraved Mustafa's seal and sent a letter seemingly written from his mouth to Shah Tahmasb I, and then sent Shah's response to Suleiman. In early modern Spain, she appears or is alluded to in works by Quevedo and other writers as well as in a number of plays by Lope de Vega. Glbahar (given name) 1500s births. Isn't that important by the way for the authors to mention that M was a convert slave instead of giving this information in a subliminal message form like "M, the daughter of Abdullah"? [5] Michalo Lituanus wrote in the 16th century that "the most beloved wife of the present Turkish emperor mother of his first [son] who will govern after him, was kidnapped from our land". Chteau de Blois A favourite royal residence, The Daughters of William the Silent Emilia Antwerpiana of Nassau. 1540. Hurrem or Khorram (Persian: ) means "the joyfull one" in Persian. Theories I presented are with facts of ottoman etiquette and evidence from History books. However, her philanthropy is in contrast to this as she cared for the poor. At his mothers funeral, Murad was supposed to remain in the palace during the funeral. And there is lots of lots of doubts about the title of this woman. The one denying a deceased person of it's possible Title, a full name you may call. She often suffered from lack of money 2 until Suleimans death; Sultan Selim II later increased her income to help her. [3][11][12] While Hrrem became Suleiman's new favorite and later his legal wife, Mahidevran Sultan retained the status of the crowned mother of Suleiman's eldest son,[13] and became Suleiman's "first wife". In the Istanbul harem, Hurrem became a rival to Mahidevran and her influence over the sultan soon became legendary. People have done a great job depicting fake ottoman culture. All these authors could've have used this phrase simply because they didn't know what the real father's name was, like I said "this name was and is very common for any royal family as well as a common family in any Islamic dynasty." A few years later, We have not seen another such example after 15th century of a Senior consort being not called Sultana. With Suleiman, she had five sons and one daughter. Mahidevran - The overshadowed Chief Consort - History of Royal Selim II (r. 15661574) likely never held anything against Mahidevran personally. She was his mothers rival, not his. Selim II, as depicted in a m On the contrary, I sympathize with Mahidevran Hatun. Circassian or Albanian? Bas kadin literally means "Head Woman", and if this "head woman" status didn't exist at that time then why she has been referred as "Ba kadin" or Birinci kadin by numerous books? Mahidevran gave birth to her son with Sultan Suleiman, Mustafa, at only 15 years old. Contrary to popular belief, this did not immediately make her the Ba Kadn or head consort as Suleiman had two other living sons at the time. Prince Idar took this as an opportunity to make a good relationship with their rapidly spending neighboring dynasty, as young Prince Sulieman was only a few year older (if not the same age) than his most beautiful daughter. She commissioned a bath, the Hurrem Sultan Bathhouse, to serve the community of worshippers in the nearby Hagia Sophia. ehzade Mahmud (November 1512 - 29 October 1521); This page was last edited on 21 March 2021, at 10:11. The Tatars may have first taken her to the Crimean city of Kaffa, a major centre of the Ottoman slave trade, before she was taken to Istanbul. She probably acted as the sultan's advisor, wrote diplomatic letters to King Sigismund II Augustus of Poland (r.15481572) and patronized major public works (including the Haseki Sultan Complex and the Hurrem Sultan Bathhouse). Our ancestors said that the plague goes away once the trees shed their leaves in autumn."[26]. I think she was chief consort but later lost her position though she remained first wife. [3] She entered the Imperial Harem, rose through the ranks and became the favourite of Sultan Suleiman. The name Roxalane derives from Roksolanes, which was the generic term used by the Ottomans to describe girls from Podolia and Galicia who were taken in slave raids. When Suleiman freed and married her, she became the Haseki Sultan (adding the word sultan to a woman's name or title indicated that she was a part of the dynasty). Manisa was the most important province, and according to the tradition, only the favourite prince could be appointed there. She learns about the pregnancy of Nigar Kalfa through Gulsah and she informs Hatice Sultan of his husband's unfaithfulness. There must be only one, with correct facts that inform people with the necessary information, and the reader, not the editor, is the one who makes the interpretation. Above all, her being mother of heir apparent is not a popular culture but a fact. Scholars thus agree that European artists created a visual identity for Ottoman women that was largely imagined. Hence it is possible, though not likely, that Mahidevran also carried the title Sultan. The Ottoman Empire, 13001650: The Structure of Power. Learn more about merges. In fact, Suleiman was afraid of his eldest sons power. [6] 113.203.150.188 (talk) 02:19, 1 March 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply], Popular culture and Ottoman court etiquette are two different things. Hurrem was allowed to give birth to more than one son which was a stark violation of the old imperial harem principle, "one concubine mother one son," which was designed to prevent both the mother's influence over the sultan and the feuds of the blood brothers for the throne. Yet they were called Sultana for being Sultan's Kadins (Wives) You have a very little knowledge you are only referring to a few (if not one) online source and claiming that was it. This article is literally the ONLY one in wikipedia to call a hatun a sultana. [20] After the death of Mustafa, Mahidevran lost her status in the palace as the mother of the heir apparent and moved to Bursa. She died in 1558, in Istanbul and was buried in a mausoleum within the Sleymaniye Mosque complex. However, some argue that she has Albanian roots. Wikipedia doesn't work like that. If you are, however, still convinced that only Peirce's book is authentic source for the Ottomans, try putting this "concubinage" information in Ottoman Empire in details as explained by Leslie and see the response of Turks and Ottoman followers by yourself. In this case, Suleiman not only broke the old custom, but began a new tradition for the future Ottoman sultans: To marry in a formal ceremony and to give their consorts significant influence on the court, especially in matters of succession. Also, why does these History Books (not popular history books) referred her as Sultan? She had a Kira who acted as her secretary and intermediary on several occasions, although the identity of the kira is uncertain (it may have been Strongilah[39] or Esther Handali[citation needed]). For the series' last season, she is portrayed by Turkish actress Vahide Perin. The reason I call for a page title is to respect Ottoman customs and history, nothing more. [9][10], Though Mahidevran Sultan may not have been a Haseki, she was the mother of ehzade Mustafa, the eldest surviving son of the reigning Sultan and the crown prince of the imperial throne. ?--Phso2 (talk) 21:39, 26 March 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply]. Later, Hurrem became the first woman to remain in the sultan's court for the duration of her life. New York: Palgrave Macmillan. According to reports of theVenetian ambassador, Mustafa was the whole joy in his mothers life, and Mahidevran was a highly effective figure in her sons court. He was accused of collaborating with the Shah and was executed in the battle camp. In her first short letter to Sigismund II, Hurrem expresses her highest joy and congratulations to the new king on the occasion of his ascension to the Polish throne after the death of his father Sigismund I the Old in 1548. Mahidevran was his most trustable advisor as well as chief of his harem. [11], Even the reports of the Venetian ambassadors (baili) at Suleiman's court, the most extensive and objective first-hand Western source on Hurrem to date, were often filled with the authors own interpretations of the harem rumours. That same year ambassador Navagero wrote, It is impossible to describe how much he is loved and desired by all successors to the throne. In 1541, when Mehmet (Hrrems first son) reached the proper age to be local governor, tensionsbetween two women rose again. Hurrem Haseki Sultan, or Roxelana, is well-known both in modern Turkey and in the West, and is the subject of many artistic works. I oppose changing the title from Sultan to Hatun. Sorry, but the page you are looking for doesn't exist. Hurrem's birth name is unknown. The poem in the show was written by Mustafa's companion, Yayha Bey. In real life, Yayha Bey also did write a poem too. So it was not Suleiman himse "LUCKYEYE GROUP MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES WITH RESPECT TO THIS WEB SITE OR ITS CONTENTS, WHICH ARE PROVIDED FOR USE "AS IS." Thank you. WebMihrimah Sultan (1522 - January 25, 1578) was the daughter of the Ottoman Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent and his wife Hrrem Sultan. This new woman was the famous Hrrem Sultan. The consorts were never to return to Istanbul unless their sons succeeded to the throne. Despite the fact that male European artists were denied access to Hurrem in the Harem, there are many Renaissance paintings of the famous sultana. It is explicitly explained that the title "Haseki Sultan" was created when Hrrem married Suleyman. Why does she have sultan next to her name? Nurbanus mosque was the first constructed in the capital by a woman of the dynasty to have two minarets. [9], During the reign of Selim I,[10] which means some time between 1512 and 1520, Crimean Tatars kidnapped her during one of their CrimeanNogai slave raids in Eastern Europe. Her love of poetry is considered one of the reasons behind her being heavily favoured by Suleiman, who was a great admirer of poetry. ", That's not the correct conclusion, though. Give me one name of the mother of potential heir to the throne (like mustafa) who wasn't called Sultana after 1500. My only request, please don't emphasize Leslie's work on entire Ottoman system, let there be other possible sources as well, specially for a matter like this, when there is little if no information on "consorts' position in harem before 16th century" is present in her book. WebMahidevranwas born on January 01, 1500 (died on February 03, 1581, she was 81 years old) in Bosporus. WebDeath 3 Feb 1581 (aged 8081) Bursa, Bursa, Turkey. Hurrem has usually been held at least partly responsible for the intrigues in nominating a successor. Your email address will not be published. Mahidevran Turbesi5.jpg 320 240; 21 KB. Birinci Kadin was used for wives only, Brinici Kadin was not used for concubines or ordinary consorts, Birinci Kadin meant First Wife/Senior Consort. You completely twisted the question and answered what I didn't ask. Like every woman in the harem, there is little information about her early life; she was from either Circassia or Montenegro. Everyone is emphasizing on only one source for the subjected woman that is of Leslie P. Peirce's and simply ignoring those sources/references/theories they don't like. Webmahidevran. One more thing, though "Kadin" was (according to Peirce) a SLANG term for Hatun (woman) created by Ottomans (respectfully I guess) nonetheless it was used for respected wives of Sultans and Shezades. If, however, you can get an admin to permanently block the page from any further editing you may do so. Again, it's just my opinion I still oppose the change of title. The original caption is only "sultana" and there is no reference to Rosne Pranvere. Just Skip that Cariye part as everyone knows even the princesses who were lawfully wedded to Sultans of Ottoman dynasty, Shah Jehans of Mughal emperors and Sheikhs of Arab, were all considered slave to their husbands. And there is no problem in distinguishing the difference between her, Gulfem Hatun and Fulane Hatun. He was a talented soldier from his childhood. There have been novels written in other languages: in French, a fictionalized biography by Willy Sperco (1972); in German, a novel by Johannes Tralow (1944, reprinted many times); a very detailed novel in Serbo-Croatian by Radovan Samardzic (1987); one in Turkish by Ulku Cahit (2001). An extra piece of information, in 15th century, the Tatars, Caucasians, Albanians, and Russians were all considered part of ""Circassia"". 'the Ruthenian one'; c. 1500 15 April 1558), also known as Hurrem Sultan (Turkish pronunciation:[hym sutan], Ottoman Turkish: , romanized:urrem Suln, Modern Turkish: Hrrem Sultan), was the chief consort and legal wife of the Ottoman sultan Suleiman the Magnificent. She's a hatun, not a legal wife, still had similar privilege as a haseki, her son didn't become sultan: all the facts point to her not being officially a sultana. Jobair khondoker (talk) 17:41, 2 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply], "But Leslie P. Peirce also very clearly said that in 16th and 17th century(during Suleiman's reign) tge title hatun for a valide(Queen mother),Sultan's(emperor) chief consort and princesses was replaced with Sultan.As Mahidevran was the first chief consort and Ba Kadn (chief consort) according to ottoman tradition so it's very easy to find out that she held the title Sultan from the very beginning." If you must, then make the title read as "Mahidevran" only. Though Hurrem must have been called Sultana first, the Ottoman dynamics simply couldn't allow such discrepancy within the Harem that once the title "Sultan" is started being used for favorite wives, that they don't called the first favorite with the same title. Scholars have wondered if Hurrem's alliance with Mihrimah Sultan and Rstem Pasha helped secure the throne for one of Hurrem's sons. One of the alledged theories points to her mother being addressed in that manner. [41] Hurrem was also intelligent and had a pleasant personality. [i][11], Shaykh Qutb al-Din al-Nahrawali, a Meccan religious figure, who visited Istanbul in late 1557, noted in his memoirs that Hurrem Sultan was of Ruthenian origin. Address: Everyone has a right to put their opinion and I just put mine. It seems you consider a Talk page as a comment war section, well it's not. [20] Hurrem became the only partner of the ruler and received the title of Haseki, which means the favorite. I got this text from this reference if anyone have an actual book name to cite then please update. Even lowest ranking maids of the Harem were called Hatun out of respect. Likewise Abdullah Frres's children were not slaves by nature. In 2019, mention of the Russian origin of Hurrem Sultan was removed from the visitor panel near her tomb at the Sleymaniye Mosque in Istanbul at the request of the Ukrainian Embassy in Turkey.[48]. But with the same decree, Mustafa was appointed to govern Konya (middle Anatolia). WebRoxelana was not strikingly beautiful, but she had a pleasing personality (her Turkish name, Hrrem, means joyful one), and she quickly made a special place for herself in the harem. 190.218.117.86 (talk) 05:26, 3 March 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply], Excuse me one more time. It is clear by your statement that you're being subjective about this: you're looking for an excuse rather than solid facts to call Mahidevran a sultana. It was not because Hafsa Sultan was firmly against this unification, but because it was not allowed for a concubine to rise above the status of the Valide Sultan (Queen Mother). "The Speech of Ibrahim at the Coronation of Maximilian II", Thomas Conley. Her greatest philanthropical work was the Great Waqf of AlQuds, a large soup kitchen in Jerusalem that fed the poor. In 1520 after the death of Selim I, Suleiman moved to Istanbul to succeed his father, his court followed him afew weeks later. After the death of Suleiman's mother Hafsa Sultan in 1534, Hurrem's influence in the palace increased, and she took over the ruling of the Harem. Imber, Colin (2002). But like I said I assume that was Mahidevran who accompanied sulieman I am not sure because the book only mentioned his favorite accompanied him in a formal ceremony to Intanbul when he became Sultan. [16]:130 Suleiman and Hurrem's last child, ehzade Cihangir was born with a hunchback, but by that time Hurrem had borne enough healthy sons to secure the future of the Ottoman dynasty. She was in the second rank after Hafsa Sultan(Valide Sultan) in the harem according to the Ottoman tradition. You can infer and speculate and theorize all you want, but history is history and I find it highly disrespectful and arrogant that you think your abstractions are worth more than the reality of events. And with all this research you are only proving yourself wrong because NONE OF YOUR SOURCES say that M was a Muslim Convert, rather, they say, Mahidevran, daughter of Abdullah. She had been a servant in the household of Hanerli Fatma Sultan, daughter of ehzade Mahmud, son of Sultan Bayezid II. Best. Although Sultans didn't used to lawfully wed their wives, Birinci Kadins were considered and treated just like lawfully wedded wives. [2][3][4][5] She has been known by this title since Nurbano's time. 190.218.117.86 (talk) 05:20, 3 March 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply], Also, let's not forget that many of those artistic/theatrical depictions are based on rumors and fictitious creations for the sake of entertainment. These princesses, were destined to be gifted (in other words sold) by their ruling fathers to their higher or equivalent ranking rulers, kings and grand Vazirs (ministers). She was the chief consort of Suleiman before the appearance of Hrrem Sultan. In attempting to avoid the execution of her sons, Hurrem used her influence to eliminate those who supported Mustafa's accession to the throne. [5] She was born in the town of Rohatyn 68km (42mi) southeast of Lww (Lviv), a major city of the Ruthenian Voivodeship of the Crown of the Kingdom of Poland,[6] in what is now Ukraine. Nedim Ardoa (talk) 06:21, 31 January 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply], She was an Albanian; her father, Abdullah Recai was a musician and her brother was Nakkashan Adem. [16]:132, Many years later, towards the end of Suleiman's long reign, the rivalry between his sons became evident. Therefore, Suleiman had to announce that he sent Mustafa to the Persian border for safety reasons. Mahidevran, concubine of Suleiman the Magnificent Birth Place: Bosporus, Turkey Birthday: 1500 Death Date: February 3, 1581(age 81) In the end, they fought and Mahidevran beat Hrrem or Hrrem let herself be beaten. On the case of Roxelana, it was a nickname she was given that didn't elevate or lowered her status and wasn't a direct reflection of Ottoman culture but more of the influence she had on history. Traditionally, when a new sultan rose to power, he would order all of his brothers killed in order to ensure there was no power struggle. [40] Her mausoleum is adjacent to Suleiman's, a separate and more somber domed structure, at the courtyard of the Sleymaniye Mosque. This has to stop, no factual person will buy your theory. The death of television icon Betty White received a lot of attention in popular culture. This woman could be Mahidevran or could also be Gulfem or the first unknown wife of Suleiman. Which memorial do you think is a duplicate of Mahidevran Hatun (174192522)? [15], Roxelana, called Hurrem Sultan by the Ottomans, probably entered the harem around seventeen years of age. Not interested? Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.203.190.128 (talk) 20:25, 14 August 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply], @Phso2 Hi, I am Worldandhistory. That's very funny!!! Reply[reply], Sort it out. In 1543, right after the sudden death of Prince Mehmet, the womens war started upagain. For this reason, she has become a controversial figure in Ottoman history subject to allegations of plotting against and manipulating her political rivals. And what was her life like before she met Suleiman?For a long time, little was known about Mahidevran Sultan. The book comprises 27 paintings and 27 poems After months of hard work Grantlea Downs School celebrated the opening of its sensory footpath last Friday. After the executions, Mahidevran moved to Bursa to build a proper grave for her son and lived there until her death in 1581. [44] This tragedy marks the first time the Ottomans were introduced on stage in France. Most other sixteenth-century Western sources on Hurrem, which are considered highly authoritative today such as Turcicae epistolae (English: The Turkish Letters) of Ogier de Busbecq, the Emissary of the Holy Roman Emperor Ferdinand I at the Porte between 1554 and 1562; the account of the murder of ehzade Mustafa by Nicholas de Moffan; the historical chronicles on Turkey by Paolo Giovio; and the travel narrative by Luidgi Bassano derived from hearsay.[11]. Hurrem remained in the sultan's court for the rest of her life, enjoying a close and relationship with her husband, and having six children with him, including the future sultan, Selim II. And I have an interesting video for the newer.Today I want to tell you about Mahidevran Sultan, who she really is.Mahidevran Sultan is the mother of Shehzade Mustafa. Invalid memorial. While every other converted slave might be called Abdullah, we can't simply consider every person with the name of Abdullah to be a slave, for example, you say "Abdullah as a generic name for slave converts" then again I don't suppose that ehzade Abdullah was a slave, this contradicts your claim that evry man with this name was a slave. It means there was no external reason for the death, such as a traumatic injury. Therefore they can't be used. As Mulkhurub Bahar Idarovna blossomed into an eye dazzling beauty, her father saw this as an opportunity to strengthen the political relationship between the Caucasus and Ottoman Dynasty. While she was serving as the mother to heir apparent she was considered a Sultan's family member (Ottoman court etiquette), hence the title. I called both the contributor and the gallery to show any link to Rosne and so far I get none. We can ask her! A short woman wearing expensive clothes and jewelry appears Hurrem: Agha? Where are we? (She looks closer at my face, noticing the 125.209.82.212 (talk) 20:52, 3 March 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply], It is stated that kadins and hasekis carried equal rights in the harem, so why are you so passionate to call her sultana if she wasn't married to Suleyman? WebExplore Mahidevrans 121 photos on Flickr! Peirce, Leslie (2017). Mahidevran Sultan probably had a stillborn child or short-lived daughter somewhere between 1521 and 1524. Letempsviendra (talk) 19:30, 16 December 2015 (UTC)Reply[reply], Phso 2 You are saying that Leslie P. Pierce told n his book that for the creation of the title Haseki Sultan for Hurrem all the other consorts carried an alternative title Hatun.But my freind you should also know that,Leslie P. Peirce also said that during 16th century(Suleiman's reign) the title Hatun for a valide,princesses and Sultan's consorts were changed by Sultan(it's called Sultana in the harem to distinguish between male and female).

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